I’ve long thought that one of the weakest proxy indicators of effective learning is engagement, and yet it’s a term persistently used by school leaders (and some researchers) as one of the most important measures of quality. In fact many of the things we’ve traditionally associated with effective teachers may not be indicative of students actually learning anything at all.

At the #ascl2015 conference last Friday, the always engaging Professor Rob Coe gave a talk entitled ‘From Evidence to Great Teaching’ and reiterated this claim. Take the following slide – How many ‘outstanding’ lessons have been awarded so based on this checklist?

Screen Shot 2015-03-21 at 21.15.21
Prof. Rob Coe From Evidence to Great Teaching ASCL 20 Mar 2015

Now these all seem like key elements of a successful classroom, so what’s the problem? and more specifically, why is engagement is such a poor proxy indicator – surely the busier they are, the more they are learning?

This paradox is explored by Graham Nuthall in his book ‘The Hidden Lives of Learners,’ (2007) in which he writes:

“Our research shows that students can be busiest and most involved with material they already know. In most of the classrooms we have studied, each student already knows about 40-50% of what the teacher is teaching.” p.24

Nuthall’s work shows that students are far more likely to get stuck into tasks they’re comfortable with and already know how to do as opposed to the more uncomfortable enterprise of grappling with uncertainty and indeterminate tasks. A good example of this as Alex Quigley has pointed out is that engagement in the form of the seemingly visible activity of highlighting is often “little more than colouring in.” Furthermore, teachers are more than happy to sanction that kind of stuff in the name of fulfilling that all important ‘engagement’ proxy indicator so prevalent in lesson observation forms.

The other difficulty is the now constant exhortation for students to be ‘motivated’ (often at the expense of subject knowledge and depth) but motivation in itself is not enough. Nuthall writes that:

“Learning requires motivation, but motivation does not necessarily lead to learning.”p.35

Motivation and engagement are vital elements in learning but it seems to be what they are used in conjunction with that determines impact. It is right to be motivating students but motivated to do what? If they are being motivated to do the types of tasks they already know how to do or focus on the mere performing of superficial tasks at the expense of the assimilation of complex knowledge then the whole enterprise may be a waste of time.

Learning is in many cases invisible as outlined many times by David Didau and is certainly not linear but rather more nebulous in actuality. As Prof. Coe reminds us, ‘learning happens when people have to think hard’ but unfortunately there is no easy way of measuring this, so what does he suggest is effective in terms of evidencing quality?

Ultimately he argues that it comes down to a more nuanced set of practitioner/student skills, habits and conditions that are very difficult to observe, never mind measure. Things like “selecting, integrating, orchestrating, adapting, monitoring, responding” and which are contingent on context, history, personalities, relationships” and which all work together to create impact and initiate effective learning. So while engagement and motivation are important elements in learning they should be seen as part of a far more complex conglomerate of factors that traditional lesson observations have little hope of finding in a 20 min drive-by.

This is where a more robust climate of research and reflective practice can inform judgements. It’s true that more time for teachers to be critically reflective will improve judgements but we also need to be more explicit in precisely what it is we are looking for and accept that often the most apparent classroom element may also be the most misleading.

Slides: Prof. Rob Coe:  From Evidence to Great Teaching ASCL 20 Mar 2015

Nuthall, Graham (2007). The Hidden Lives of Learners. Wellington: New Zealand Council for Educational Research Press

40 responses to “Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything.”

    1. I completely agree. This has been an immense frustration for me during my time developing education systems internationally, especially in Guatemala. I have seen local teachers there awarding “points” for completed work which are merely copying text from one place to another in some sort of perverse low tech method of copy-paste. The biggest problem for me was that the students loved these teachers and the teachers thought they were god’s gift to education. Students would then be immensely frustrated by teachers that provided more demanding tasks which they actually learned and developed by engaging in, and who evaluated learning and not activity completion. This contrast in approach and evaluation led to significant conflict in classrooms and staff rooms when there was a mix of international and local teachers, with often this just leading to visiting teachers dumbing down their approach so that there was less conflict and students, parents and colleagues remained “happy”. It is something that needs to be accommodated in any approach to developing education in many countries or when teachers educated in more advanced pedagogy join inexperienced and poorly trained teams.

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  1. chrismwparsons Avatar
    chrismwparsons

    Thanks for this Carl – what I’ve called the ‘Cult of Engagement’ is one of my most burning frustrations. Apart from being a misleading proxy for learning, I also strongly believe that our attempts to ensure that our pupils are *engaged* in ‘activity’ can also have a pernicious long term effect on them..

    I’ve written about how we could categorise different methods of engaging pupils recently in a triple post “Beyond the Cult of Engagement” – I’d be fascinated to know your take on it 🙂

    Beyond the Cult of Engagement – Part 1 – The Problem

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  2. […] via Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything.. […]

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  3. Reblogged this on From experience to meaning… and commented:
    Good blog post, especially for sharing this slide:

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  4. Reblogged this on The Echo Chamber.

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  5. Reblogged this on Blogcollectief Onderzoek Onderwijs and commented:
    An intriguing study with some counterintuitive conclusions. Surely, most of us will be happy when their class is engaged and busy, and be convinced that the students are learning. Not so, says Graham Nuthall, in his book ‘The Hidden Lives of Learners,’ (2007).

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  6. Engagement must be meaningful and purposeful. It is important that Ss are engaged in work that will result in improved learning outcomes.

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  7. […] at the ASCL conference last Friday seemed to generate quite a bit of energy on Twitter, as did Carl Hendrick’s post on engagement. Coe has been referring to the idea that we confuse learning with various ‘poor […]

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  8. The most telling part of this excellent blogpost, is that we currently appear to have very little idea of what constitutes effective learning. Consequently, we can’t measure it. And, so, we should stop trying to….until we actually know (really know) what we are looking for. Imagine the effect on teachers and schools if this knowledge was actually acted on.

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  9. […] unfavourably to a professional discourse in which ‘good teaching’ can be misconstrued as ‘keeping students busy’. Limiting, therefore, teachers and students’ opportunities to reflect-on-action; that is, to have […]

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  10. […] at the ASCL conference last Friday seemed to generate quite a bit of energy on Twitter, as did Carl Hendrick’s post on engagement. Coe has been referring to the idea that we confuse learning with various ‘poor proxies’ since […]

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  11. […] via Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything. | chronotope. […]

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  12. SELECTIVE “FAITH ONLY” SALVATION BY STEVE FINNELL

    FAITH ONLY BELIEVERS IN CHRIST DENY THAT THE NEW COVENANT PLAN OF SALVATION WAS NOT IN EFFECT UNTIL AFTER THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS. IN ORDER TO BE SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF THEIR SINS,THEY PROCLAIM THAT THEY CAN BE SAVED LIKE THE THIEF ON THE CROSS. (LUKE 23:39-43)
    IF MEN TODAY CAN BE SAVED LIKE, THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, THEN WHY CAN THEY NOT BE SAVED LIKE, THE RICH YOUNG RULER?

    LUKE 18:18-22 A RULER QUESTIONED HIM, SAYING, “GOOD TEACHER, WHAT MUST I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?” 19 JESUS SAID TO HIM, “WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. 20 YOU KNOW THE COMMANDMENTS, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’ 21 AND HE SAID, “ALL THESE THINGS I HAVE KEPT FROM MY YOUTH.” 22 WHEN JESUS HEARD THIS, HE SAID TO HIM, “ONE THING YOU STILL LACK; SELL ALL THAT YOU POSSESS AND DISTRIBUTE IT TO THE POOR, AND YOU SHALL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; COME AND FOLLOW ME.”

    WHAT WAS THE RICH MAN’S PLAN OF SALVATION?

    The rich man’s question was what must I do to inherit eternal life?

    1. Do not commit adultery.
    2. Do not murder.
    3. Do not steal.
    4. Do not bear false witness.
    5. Honor your father and mother.
    6. Sell all your possessions and distribute them to the poor.

    Jesus said do this and you shall have treasure in heaven.

    Can men today be saved by, the rich man’s plan of salvation? OF COURSE NOT!

    Can men today be saved by, the thief on the cross plan of salvation? OF COURSE NOT!

    The apostle Peter preached the first gospel sermon under the New Covenant on the Day of Pentecost.

    THE NEW COVENANT PLANT OF SALVATION
    1. FAITH: John 3:16
    2. REPENTANCE: Acts 2:38
    3. CONFESSION Romans 10:9-10
    4. WATER BAPTISM: Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:1-7, Colossians 2:12-13.

    (All Scripture quotes from: NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE)
    .
    Posted by Steve Finnell at 2:55 AM No comments:
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  13. The issue is HOW you define engagement. With a lay definition of it, I may agree with you. However with a more careful look at what engagement means ( not interesting, for eg !) I think it provides a great marker we need to look at more carefully.
    Can you imagine ever learning to drive, to dance or any other skill without being fully engaged? I suspect not.
    The issue is that in most formal learning environments that is not the kind of experience teachers provide. No wonder so many people struggle to learn. Without engagement, the only learning device left to us is memorisation, a very poor way of learning most things, especially skills.

    I have had a closer look at the place of engagement at http://www.strategiesinlanguagelearning.com/engagement-the-missing-key/

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  14. […] Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything. by @C_Hendrick from March 2015 […]

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  15. […] otherwise not be, and it’s a way to “get them involved.” Apart from the fact that engagement is a very poor proxy for learning, using fads and gimmicks to interest children reveals a more troubling belief that you somehow need […]

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  16. […] same writer also contests the conflation of motivation and learning in a 2015 post here, […]

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  17. […] of the best pieces I have read about the relationship between engagement and learning is Carl Hendrick’s post summarising the work of Graham Nuthall in The Hidden Lives of Learners (2007). Essentially […]

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  18. […] *Hendrick quotes Nuthall (2007) and essentially argues that if students are engaged it’s probably because the work is too easy https://chronotopeblog.com/2015/03/22/engagement-just-because-theyre-busy-doesnt-mean-theyre-learnin… […]

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  19. […] Not much else was accomplished that day, but it did change the nature of the typical student teacher relationship. It instantaneously showed me that no matter what assessment I give, what questions I ask, I will never be able to understand what actually happens inside students’ minds. All the things that I thought represented good student learning, really don’t necessarily mean students are learning anything. They do problems. They ask questions. They listen. But I can’t be sure if they are learning. […]

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  20. […] weg naar leren. Maar motivatie en engagement zijn vervangers noch proxies voor leren. Carl Hendrick schrijft: Ik heb heel lang gedacht dat engagement een van de zwakste proxies voor leren die er bestaat. […]

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  21. […] Don’t get us wrong. We love having learners being motivated and engaged and strive for them to be just that. Motivation and engagement are, in themselves, excellent paths on the road to learning. However, motivation and engagement neither can replace learning nor be a proxy for learning. Carl Hendrick writes […]

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  22. […] this case, does not equal causation. Research has shown that students tend to be most motivated by what is familiar to them. Using the above example, it is not surprising that students would be more motivated to learn […]

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  23. […] this case, does not equal causation. Research has shown that students tend to be most motivated by what is familiar to them. Using the above example, it is not surprising that students would be more motivated to learn […]

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  24. […] recently came across Robert Coe in a blog by Carl Hendrick about engagement (Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re […]

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  25. […] 1. Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything – Carl Hendrick […]

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  26. […] Engagement – I personally think it is a mistake to plan lessons for engagement. While it might be desirable for students to be learning and be engaged, the illusion of engagement is a poor proxy for learning. David Didau writes, “does engagement actually matter?” here. Greg Ashman explains why he feels engagement is a poor proxy for learning here. “Just because they’re engaged, doesn’t mean they’re learning” says Carl Hendrick here. […]

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  27. […] isn’t easy. You can’t see learning and there are no easy proxies, though making sure the tutee is working hard and checking understanding and recall over the longer […]

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  28. […] In addition to the strangeness of organic behaviour, a further factor is that when we talk about impact we have to talk in relative terms. So for example, we know that for novice learners discovery based learning is worse than fully guided instruction. As far as the research is concerned, that isn’t controversial. But that doesn’t mean that students in a discovery classroom will learn nothing. It just means that they will learn less than ones in a fully guided classroom. There will be more misconceptions, greater fragmentation in students’ mental models and just generally less stuff learnt. We don’t normally get control conditions in our classrooms, so we can rarely actually compare teaching techniques against each other. We then end up thinking that this approach or technique is great when in reality it didn’t work as well as something else would have done. We get further tricked by the engagement problem: sometimes it really looks and feels like our students are learning because of how engaged they are. But what if they are engaged precisely because they are not learning anything? […]

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  29. merci pour les informations

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  30. […] Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything. Carl Hendrick […]

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  31. […] lot of that changed when I read Carl Hendrick’s blog about engagement. Drawing on the work of Graham Nuthall and Professor Rob Coe, Carl argues that in a lot of these […]

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  32. […] Engagement: Just because they’re busy, doesn’t mean they’re learning anything. Carl Hendrick […]

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